Rob Harkavy Transcript

OUTcast S2, Ep 5 • 28 March 2022 • 34:37

Rosie 00:00:05 Welcome to OUTcast, the podcast where we catch up with some of the most engaging, courageous, and inspiring LGBTQ+ people from all over the world. We ask our lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, and queer guests where their coming out journeys began, what they’ve gone through along the way – the joy and the pain, but we promise there will be more joy – and what gives them hope. I’ll be interviewing people from all walks of life, from hardworking queer people behind the scenes to more familiar faces you might have never known even had the coming out stories that they’re about to share. You can follow us on social media, at @OUTcastLGBT, and you can find us online at outcastpod.com.

Rosie 00:01:00 Rob Harkavy is the Editor of OutNews Global, which dubs itself the world’s most fabulous LGBTQ online magazine. And he’s also Weekend Editor at the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change. An experienced journalist, he’s been published in the Times, Diva Magazine, Gay Star News and other publications as well. He’s an ambassador for the mental health charity SOS Silence of Suicide and a patron of Jan Trust, which promotes inclusion for ethnically diverse communities, and educates and empowers women against extremism and hate crime. In the nineties, Rob co-founded Respect Holidays, a travel agency designed to help LGBTQ+ people travel safely and affordably, and it quickly became the largest gay holiday company in Europe. Rob’s also been an ambassador for Stonewall and he’s passionate about championing diversity and inclusion, often through public speaking. Welcome, Rob. It’s great to have you on OUTcast.

Rob 00:02:00 Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Rosie 00:02:02 So, where does your coming out story begin?

Rob 00:02:06 I came out before coming out was a thing; before it was called coming out. And this was, um, this was when I was still at school. And, I knew from a very, very early age that I was bisexual, again, not even knowing what bisexual meant. I mean, I know people out there in Podcast Land can’t see me, but I look amazing, but in fact, I’m 57 years old. So we’re talking sort of in the seventies, you know?

Rosie 00:02:40 Yeah, I can confirm, I can confirm that!

Rob 00:02:44 Thank you. Thank you, Rosie. You’re not so bad yourself! So I knew that I kind of, even before I kind of knew what sex was, I kind of… you still find people attractive don’t you, when you’re quite young? And I knew that I kind of liked girls and boys, and what sort of really made me feel it was okay was Bowie: David Bowie, who really was the only public figure who was openly bisexual. So I went to an all boys school, or at least it was all boys until the sixth form, and so my first sexual experiences were with boys. But I knew that wasn’t the be all and end all of it. I knew that I liked  girls and then it sort of evolved. So I know this is coming out story, but I didn’t actually come out. It’s just, I lived my life and, you know, my friends, my family, my work colleagues just kind of knew who I was.

Rob 00:03:45 They talk a lot about bisexual erasure, but actually if you’re bisexual, it’s kind of – back then at least – it was kind of, there was less of a necessity if you like to come out. It was a bit feeble, but you could still always kind of attend an event or something with a girl, you know, and not be lying because you’re bisexual. So a lot of my gay friends did do the thing, and maybe you did that too, where you sat down with your mum or your dad or your family, whatever, and said, “Mum, Dad, I’ve got something to tell you.” But I never did that. I never hid it. But if I was going out with a guy, when I was in my teens, my mum said, you know, “where are you off to tonight?” You know, “I’m going out with Jimmy” or “I’m going out with Debbie” and, you know, neither seemed to matter to my parents, and it certainly didn’t matter to me. So my coming out story is one of evolution into my lifestyle rather than a specific moment or moments where I kind of had to bare my soul.

Rosie 00:04:50 That’s really inspiring. I think it sounds like there was a lot of self-acceptance in you early on, perhaps, and there’s a lot of shame stuff around being LGBTQ+ sort of whichever generation you’re from, but it sounds like you had this sort of, not unique, but you had this wonderful experience of having self-acceptance and you had, yeah, the Bowie role model and the kind of nice natural way of evolving into it.

Rob 00:05:15 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was very lucky. I talked about my parents, but actually I was brought up by a single mum from the age of five. She’d done a little bit of work in the theatre and stuff, which back then was the kind of clichéd home of the homo, as it were. It’s different now but, you know, back then when perhaps society was less liberal, the kind of creative arts or the performing arts were something of a haven. So she certainly had a lot of gay friends and there were gay couples who used to come to our house when I was little and bearing in mind it wasn’t legal until 1967 when I was three years old. So I thought it was normal, but actually it was more special for these people to kind of be out, than it was for me.

Rob 00:06:00 Because you know, when you’re a kid, you just, you accept things, don’t you, nobody is born prejudice. No baby is born homophobic or racist. You know, it’s what they’re taught. And I’ve been lucky in my upbringing from my mum, that there was never any… there wasn’t a hint of homophobia. And I remember, I remember one occasion – I really can’t remember what the story was because I was really quite young – but it was a story of someone’s ruin, basically, for being gay. Maybe an MP, maybe a TV presenter or something, but you know, all over the papers, certainly over the tabloids; a massive fall from grace. And I remember my mum – I must have been about seven or eight or something – actually sitting down and talking to me. And she said, “remember the least interesting thing about someone is what they do in their bedroom and with whom.” And, obviously, that’s not quite right. If you want to date them, that’s a very interesting thing. But I think the point she was making was, it’s the content of your character, what you do for a living, how you treat your loved ones, whatever, you know, that’s what matters about somebody, not who you shag. And that’s something I’ve always carried through my life.

Rosie 00:07:17 Yeah. It sounds like she created almost a non-homophobic world. A non-homophobic sort of beautiful, yeah, environment. Just a utopia really. She sounds like an incredible woman.

Rob 00:07:28 Yeah. I mean, I was lucky, you know. I lived in, we were talking before we came on air that, you know, I live in north London. I’ve always lived here in north London. It’s not that, you know, the streets are teeming with film stars, but it’s always been a kind of quite a liberal media friendly place, I suppose, north London. And by the accident of birth, that’s where I’ve ended up. I know there’s people who may have been the same as me, but growing up in different parts of the country, back in the seventies who would have had a very, very different experience. And I’m actually very mindful of that in my work. Even now when I write about homophobia and stuff like that, it’s tempting to just say we live in a post-homophobia world. You know, the fact that the gay scene has been desimated in London is a bad thing, but also it’s a good thing because 20 years ago, if I went out with gay friends, we’d go up to Soho to a gay bar. Now we just go to a local near where I live because it’s completely accepted. And I always have to pull back from that. I think, “well, yeah, Rob, you work in media and you live in north London. It’s not, it’s not the same for everybody, is it?”

Rosie 00:08:37 That’s very true. It does sound like you had a really positive experience, but continuing with this thread, were there ever situations where, even though you had such an accepting, self-accepting experience and accepting experience, of being bisexual, can you remember consciously hiding it at any point?

Rob 00:08:55 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Without a doubt. I’m a football fan. I don’t go so much now, but I used to go, you know, not every Saturday like a mad fan, but, you know, I used to go maybe ten, twelve games a season when I was in my teens. Certainly back then anything other than kind of stand up heterosexual, anything other than that would have been completely unacceptable. So it wouldn’t even have crossed my mind to have discussed dating a guy with the guys I used to go to football with, because a lot of the people I went to football with weren’t actually my friends, they were my football friends. So we only ever saw each other at the game. Do you know what I mean? In fact, if any of them are listening to this, it’s me Rob. Yeah. I’m Bi! Because I never told them back in the eighties.

Rosie 00:09:47 Rob Harkavy comes out on OUTcast Podcast, to his football mates. I love it. 

Rosie 00:10:10 I’ve seen from your social media that you’re Jewish. How does Judaism genuinely approach it – being bisexual, being LGBTQ+?

Rob 00:10:20 Well, I’m no expert on Judaism. In fact, I’m probably the worst Jew in the world. Although I’m very, very proud of my heritage and the wonderful long heritage of Judaism. From a religious point of view, I’m probably not the right person to ask. Certainly I think like with all religions, the more Orthodox are the other more homophobic. And I say that with a small aitch, maybe I should say less accepting. But certainly I was Jewish enough, for example, to have a Bar Mitzvah, and very many years ago, I think 25 years ago, the synagogue that I had my Bar Mitzvah in – and I’m going to name check them: Finchley Reform Synagogue – got a lesbian rabbi.

Rosie: 00:11:02 Oh Fab.

Rob 00:11:05 You know, so that was way, way before ministers in the Church of England – I mean, there have always been gay ministers in the Church of England – but could be out and proud. So, let’s not do a Jew lesson, but there’s, you know, there’s effectively three branches: there’s the Orthodox, which is the strictest, there’s the Reform, and then there’s the Liberal. Most secular Jews from north London, like me, grew up in the Reform tradition, which is more Liberal than Orthodox, but not as hippy-dippy as Liberal. And certainly within that environment, as I say, we had a lesbian rabbi in my synagogue 25 years ago. So yeah, I’ve never felt any pressure as a Jew to hide or be embarrassed or ashamed about my sexuality.

Rosie 00:11:52 The number of people I’ve spoken to on this podcast who are either religious, or it’s come up, or they’re a religious leader, is actually quite surprising. So it sounds like there is that kind of very open approach, the same as you would in a liberal Christianity, or things like that.

Rob 00:12:10 Yeah. I mean, what gets me about religion as a whole is that all religions, at their fundamental base, you know – Christianity especially, but all religions – have love at the centre of it, don’t they? You know, even these idiots who misinterpret the religious texts for, sort of terrorist purposes and stuff, you know, they should reread them because really most religions… obviously they were written years ago and there is a bit of vengeance and war and stuff, because that was what life was like then. But on the whole, religion is about looking after your fellow human and stuff like that. So many religious people have such a blind spot to homophobia. I know even less about Christianity obviously than I do about Judaism, but I do know from hearing what Jesus Christ has said, or said in his life, he never, you know, the New Testament doesn’t mention homosexuality. But you kind of know that Jesus would have been cool with it, don’t you? 

Rosie 00:13:13 Very cool with it! Like honestly. Yeah, that’s it. It’s about love, it’s about an openness; accepting anyone. So yeah, it completely is compatible with LGBTQ+ issues and I will never hear otherwise. Let’s talk about your career for a bit. You’re so integral to the LGBTQ+ community, I’d say from a business point of view, from a journalism point of view, and from an activism point of view. But in 1993, you co-founded Respect Holidays [to] provide affordable and safe holiday packages for LGBTQ+ people. Why was a speciality LGBTQ+ travel provider needed in the 1990s?

Rob 00:13:56 Back then, we were simply the gay holiday company. Why was it needed? Well, we weren’t the first, but there were sort of little niche gay tour operators, holiday companies before. But, to be brutally honest, they were very sex-based. So they didn’t do glossy… This is before the internet, so they didn’t do glossy brochures. They might do kind of black and white leaflets. And it was all about staying in a sort of seedy hotel, somewhere with a basement or, you know, a cellar, with, you know, whips and chains and sex and leather. And that’s fine, you know, whatever floats your boat. But what didn’t exist is what I can now say [is] a Tui for gay people. You know, a nice glossy brochure, a good honest brochure, good convenient flight times, all licensed AFTA, and all that kind of stuff, but simply aiming at gay people in the same way that at the time there were niche holiday companies or people who liked to play golf or people who liked to go yachting, or for straight singles, or for that matter Club 18-30. You know, the travel business has always had niches, but there wasn’t a gay niche apart from this, kind of, very seedy sexual side of it.

Rob 00:15:19 So, to be cynical for a minute, from a business point of view, the early nineties were just the right time. The homophobia was becoming less and less acceptable, and so, to start the company was viable. But, and this is the cynical bit, there was still enough homophobia around for gay people to feel that they wanted a safe space to go on holiday to. So it was that the nineties was that sweet spot where it was needed, but it was viable and acceptable at the same time.

Rosie 00:15:59 That’s it, so in the nineties, LGBTQ+ people would have been coming out relatively safe, out and proud at home largely, but the relative safety from homophobia and abuse might not have extended to travel. So you hit that sweet spot with your business.

Rob 00:16:16 Absolutely. And we got more resistance overseas than we did here. So obviously when you’re setting up a tour operator, basically what you’re doing is you’re buying the components of a holiday, putting them together and then hopefully selling them for more than what you bought them for. Those components are flights, accommodation, an overseas rep, coach between the airport and the accommodation, you know, all the bits that make a package holiday. And when we were setting up the company, obviously there was no Zoom, there was no internet. So we actually had to get on a plane, go over to Gran Canaria, Ibiza, Mykonos, all over to actually meet with hoteliers to say, “we’re starting a gay holiday company. What rates will you give us?” Um, you know, and “can we have some photos please, to put you in our brochure?” and lots and lots of these accommodation owners said, “we don’t mind… basically,” they said, “we don’t mind taking your money, but I’m not having my property in a gay brochure.”

Rosie 00:17:15 Yeah. I was going to ask what was the reception to Respect Holidays from the providers?

Rob 00:17:22 The reception was generally very good, because we tended to focus on places where there was already a gay infrastructure. Like Ibiza, like Mykonos and also like Sitges, you know, near Barcelona and so on. But there were some kind of older, more traditional people who perhaps had owned family properties rather than, you know, a hotel chain, you know, family businesses, things like that, perhaps, the older people, traditional, they might have been farmers or something until the tourist boom in the seventies, and then decided to get rid of the goats and build a hotel on their land. But they were still very traditional people. And it was them really that said, you know, they wanted the money because they knew the gay market was – a phrase I hate, but they recognised the Pink Pound.

Rob 00:18:12 But didn’t want the, and I will say it, the shame of their mates in the bar saying, “oh, look, you a big queer, your hotel’s in a gay brochure.” Of course we did have to stick to our guns and not deal with [them]. You’re either in or you’re out, you know, there’s no way we were going to give people our money if they didn’t let us publicise the fact that they were accepting gay holiday makers. We also got a bit of resistance, I have to say, from the travel press in the UK. Even though I left the gay travel business back in 2007, I still keep in touch and I still read the trade press and I still find it really irksome when they’re doing massive features on LGBT holidays.

Rob 00:19:01 And they’re speaking to people from… well, I’m not going to name any big companies, but you know, from large household name organisations, who talk about how they value their gay customers. And I think, “well Christ!” How we were banging our heads against a brick wall back then to get any sort of PR outside the gay community. In other words, within the travel industry as a whole. I mean, what was important at the time, Rosie, was the PR within the gay community. So all the magazines and the papers and stuff did give us PR, so we did well. But I’d just say, I do find it slightly irksome. Now, you know, LGBT holidays are flavour of the month to the travel industry, but back then, nobody wanted to know.

Rosie 00:20:02 What’s changed for LGBTQ+ people over your lifetime?

Rob 00:20:07 I’m going to tell you a bit of an anecdote here. It will make sense in the end. My father was a big fan of rugby – rugby union. And up until, I think, the late eighties or nineties, it was an amateur game. So when you watched England playing Wales on television, the people playing were policemen and school teachers and accountants, you know, they all had other jobs. But they were out there representing their country. And there was something wonderful about that. Now, since then, it’s become professional and it’s a much, much better game. But something has been lost. There was something nice about seeing amateurs turning up and playing for England or Scotland or Australia, you know, and then knowing that they’re going back to work in their solicitor’s office on the Monday morning or whatever. And I draw that parallel with the gay scene, the LGBT scene. There used to be a sense of sort of – I won’t go as far as a siege mentality – but it you know, the language Polari was there to make us all a bit exclusive and a bit of ‘them against us’ and, you know, straight people never went into LGBT bars and it had a kind of quite a nice sort of community underground feel to it.

Rob 00:21:29 Well, mostly in the UK, that’s gone. Now, as I said to you earlier, you know, if you want to go out for a drink with your gay mates on the whole, in London, on the whole – well, certainly I do – I just go to any one of the three pubs within a five minute walk of my front door, none of which is a gay pub; although there are gay people who go in there. 20 years ago, even 15 years ago, I would’ve got on the tube to go to the Black Cap in Camden or somewhere in Soho or whatever. So in the same way that professional rugby is better than amateur rugby, the increased acceptance that you don’t need to be ghettoised is of course better, but something has been lost. I also think that the, and I’ve got to be very careful what I say here, because we live in such an angry world where any misstep is picked up on.

Rob 00:22:22 But I think what some people very disparagingly call “The Alphabet Soup” – LGBTQ Q I A K for kink. So basically you could be straight, but you like being spanked. And some people think that is part of the LGBTQ+ community. Well, it doesn’t affect me, if that’s what they want to be, that’s what they want to be. But I think there has been a kind of dilution. I think now perhaps some people who are basically straight, but might have had a bit of a fumble with someone of the same sex after six lagers – and I hope I’m not being too uncharitable – but are now kind of adopting a kind of, and people, you can’t see this, but I’m doing air quotes, a queer identity to kind of make them feel perhaps a little bit special. And you know, it’s like nobody’s straight anymore. Everybody has to have some sort of queer identity. And I dunno, I dunno why that annoys me, because live and let live, and each to their own, but I think it kind of dilutes the identity in a way. If everyone’s part of it, then nobody is part of it.

Rosie 00:23:28 Yeah. I’ve thought about this recently. I think there’s been a tipping point that potentially we’re over. So I think to diversify the meaning of LGBT and add Q and + I think welcomes in as many people as we need, but I think you’re right. If then it’s so accepted that it then becomes adopted by absolutely anyone who’s just touched another person of the same sex, whatever, it loses any meaning. And then it becomes this broad soup again. But within that soup, then those of us who do look different – so a woman who has a wife, or someone who’s transgender – we become the odd ones out again, within what was meant to be the odd one out. So I think there is something to be said for it. I think you’re right. I think we have to be careful of what we say, but basically if everyone adopts it, it shows in general, there’s a good level of progress in the UK, like you say, but yeah, if we broaden it out too much and welcome everyone in, all those people we’ve welcomed who are normal – or more normal than us, again, to use air quotes – they’re going to then start bearing down on us less usual ones again, and we’ll just go round in full circle. And so it does… it’s worth saying, I think,

Rob 00:24:42 I mean, I was at pride a couple of years ago… pride in London… it must’ve been 2019, that was the last one. And there was a load of male middle-aged adult babies in the parade. Now I don’t know what their sexuality was, but style-wise, I’d be very surprised if they were gay. But they were fine. Look, if you get off on dressing like a baby, um, and sucking a dummy and a giant outsize bottle in public, you know, all power to you. None of us should be judged on our sort of sexual proclivities, otherwise we’re all going to be judged. Who are we to judge people’s sexual preferences? And I’m not judging them, but you know, gay pride, really? Some middle-aged straight bloke, sucking a dummy wearing an outsize nappy? Is that really what the gay scene has become? And that does slightly concern me.

Rosie 00:25:38 Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, adult babies specifically – I’ve I’ve only seen like one documentary about it, but I would say, I don’t feel like that’s got anything to do with the sexuality spectrum. It’s a social commentary on having too much responsibility, and wanting to regain a sort of infantile lack of responsibility to fix probably a mental health kind of crisis and loneliness, and all that stuff. But yeah, that’s got… that really doesn’t have anything to do with gay rights.

Rob 00:26:05 Yeah. I think it’s gone beyond same sex attraction now. I mean, it definitely has. I mean, as I said before, something has been lost when we move beyond same sex attraction. It’s better to be inclusive than not. But I think it’s still fair to ask questions about if everybody is under this umbrella, well, who’s left outside it?

Rosie 00:26:27 Yeah. Perhaps we’re in a strange transition and it’ll all start firming up again soon.

Rob 00:26:32 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, each to their own. This is not really a niggle, you know, live and let live. It’s better to be nice than to not be nice, and it’s better to be inclusive than exclusive, but there, I suppose, there is still a discussion to be had and questions to be asked.

Rosie 1 00:26:47 Very much so. And yeah, lesbians, bisexual, gay, and trans people were all kind and inclusive. So we do what we do, don’t we. But it’s a very good point. What are the biggest challenges, do you think, facing the LGBTQ+ community today?

Rob 00:27:03 I don’t think it is just necessarily the LGBTQ+ community, but I think it’s all communities, if you like – and I blame social media – but we are starting to see very intolerant silos of intellectual purity, where it’s almost like, kind of, Stalinism where any deviation from what somebody somewhere has said is the truth

Rob 00:27:31 Is treated as heresy. And I can certainly see within the LGBTQ community, the community turning it on itself, because they don’t necessarily share the same beliefs as everybody else. You see it in politics. You know, I’m not here to discuss my personal politics, but I will tell you I don’t vote Tory. But the truth is that the Home Secretary is Asian, The Chancellor is Asian and the Secretary of State for Health is Asian. And they’re Conservatives. Now left wing Twitter goes mad at this. And I vote Labour, but Left Wing Twitter goes mad at this because, “oh my God, they’re people of colour. They should be labour voters.” But what are they doing, they are Conservative ministers? And, you know, you can almost see the smoke coming out of their ears: do not compute, do not compute. And a similar sort of thing happens in the gay community.

Rob 00:28:27 You know, in fact, talking of politics, gay Tories. Well, so, what? If you believe… I’m not a Tory… but if you believe the free market is the best way to further society, it’s a perfectly legitimate view. All over the world, people believe in the free market. But then to sort of be expunged, if you like, from the community, in a kind of Orwelian way, for having a belief that sits outside the kind of group think. The short answer is the biggest danger, I think, is the community turning in on itself because some people don’t subscribe to the current group think.

Rosie 00:29:03 Yeah. Social media makes everyone snap to a decision about what they want to say about something, and has just eradicated all listening and thinking time.

Rob 00:29:13 Yeah. I mean, I try to not repeat myself when I write editorials and opinion pieces, but one thing I have repeated a few times is I do not believe that Twitter and others, but it’s mainly Twitter, that seems to be the most poisonous one, should be treated as a platform. They should be treated as a publisher. If somebody writes a letter to OutNews Global defaming you, Rosie, and says something about you that is blatantly untrue, and I publish it, you can sue me: OutNews Global. Not them, not the person who wrote it. Me for publishing it. Same as a mainstream newspaper. If I write a letter to The Guardian or The Telegraph alleging something, and they’re stupid enough to publish it, you can sue them because they published a defamatory comment about you. Twitter is not, in law, a publisher. It’s just a platform.

Rob 00:30:05 So they say, “well, it’s not us who said it,” but actually they are a publisher. They are, you know, by any definition, they’re a publisher. And they should take responsibility for what is on their platform. And the excuse – I’m getting on a soapbox now – and the excuse that they’re just dealing with so much traffic that it’s not possible to regulate it, is nonsense. You don’t see, thank goodness, you don’t see child porn on Twitter. You see all sorts of images, but I’ve never seen, thank goodness, any abuse of children. Why? Because Twitter is perfectly capable of regulating their content before it’s published. So to say that they can’t do it, it’s, well I’ll say it, it’s a lie. They can clearly do it.

Rosie 00:30:52 People talk about freedom of speech all the time. And when they’re on social media, they’re talking about freedom of speech. But what they’re forgetting is that, like you say, that they’re getting freedom of platform in that environment. It’s not freedom of speech. They’re getting a free platform to circulate hate speech, which is a completely different thing. It’s not speaking freely, it’s publishing hate, which usually wouldn’t be allowed because there would be editorial standards, or there would be regulation of publishing platforms.

Rob 00:31:20 Yeah. Freedom of speech is a myth. Freedom of speech has never existed. There’s laws. You’ve never been allowed to libel or slander someone. So what’s that, curtailing freedom of speech? You know, or to incite violence against an individual or a group of people, you know, if you say, “kill all Jews, let’s go out and kill all Jews.” That’s not freedom of speech. That’s incitement of violence. That’s illegal. You know? So this myth that you can say anything because of freedom of speech has always been nonsense. You know, there are regulations; there are laws. 

Rosie 00:32:09 What gives you hope for the future?

Rob 00:32:12 I actually think, even if it’s a hundred thousand British people being poisonous on social media, well there’s nearly 70 million people in this country. I actually think that the majority of people are warm-hearted, welcoming and kind.

Rob 00:32:30 There are a load of far-right meatheads in this country. There always have been. I mean, you know, we’re not talking… I mentioned before going to football, you know, when I used to go to  football in the seventies and eighties, outside certain clubs, there were people with swastikas selling, like National Front, you know, the precursor of the BNP, the National Front newspaper. Me a Jewish boy, going to the football. You know, there’s always been, kind of, right wing meat heads, but there is a reason why, unlike most European countries, the far right wing has never really had, well, they’ve never had an MP. The BNP occasionally used to get the odd counsellor, but then they’d lose their seats at the next election because they were useless. Because I think the British people are fundamentally tolerant, humorous, welcoming, and have a sense of the ridiculous. I think when anyone is too bombastic and too basically right wing or, for that matter, too left wing like some Corbynista people, I think the majority of British people see them for what they are, laugh at them, and then go about their business. Which is basically being nice, decent human beings. And that’s my hope for the future. That people are basically nice.

Rosie 00:33:44 Yeah. That’s very hopeful. And I agree. I think there’s so much to be said for kindness in people and seeing that. Rob, thanks so much for speaking with me today and coming on OUTcast. It’s been incredible to meet you and to catch up.

Rob 00:34:03 Thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure, Rosie. Thank you so much for having me on.

Rosie 00:34:09 Thank you for listening to OUTcast, a podcast with interviews and coming out stories from inspiring LGBTQ+ people. I’m your host Rosie Pentreath. I hope you can join us again next week.